40 breeder build redux.

[blackhailfire]

So, recently I introduced myself. I figure I should make a build thread. This is gonna be long and slow so bear with me. Advice and critiques are welcome as I go along.

Turns out sometime in there the tank I was using got whacked. That one is gonna be dismantled for glass for the sump of the new one.

Here's where I sit so far. Next steps are drilling the overflows and skinning the stand. Probably going to use half inch planks instead of plywood. The empty space next to the sump is meant for both an ATO and a QT tank if I can squeeze them both in.

Also I'd like to hear opinions on internal vs external weir. Something along the lines of a DIY glass version of the ghost overflow design. I don't want to cut the tank along the length but I'm debating a traditional overflow box on the back probably nearing 30 or so inches for surface skimming. I'm debating putting together a slim weir internally to maximize internal tank space. The stand is extended to accommodate the length of the sump so I have approximately 7.5 to 8 inches of rear space available for either design, and still allow for the display to rest up against the wall.

 

[Humblefish]

Sorry to see the tank got chipped

 

[clsanchez77]

Sorry about the tank, right at a seam too. Good call on cutting it down. You will have some nice thick baffles

In general, I would not recommend putting a "QT" within the stand of your DT. Surprised that got past @Humblefish

Having said that, do not under estimate how much space you will need for other supplements, especially 2-part (or kalkwasser or other systems). This could easily take up the space of another ATO.

Reading through your thoughts on the overflow, I do not like the idea of cutting the back glass either. Drilling it is perfectly fine as stresses redistribute themselves nicely around circular holes. Check out the coast to coast overflows. If I were redoing a DIY tank, this is how I would go. Basically a low profile but very long weir sits at the top rear of your tank. You drill holes through the back glass and connect your plumbing it. You could secure an external glass box to receive the water and plumb from there, but the less error prone way is to connect plumbing directly to the bulkheads.

Checkout Melev's Reef on the web. He has a really nice website where he has detailed all of his DIY reefing projects over the years (at least a decade now). he has a few tanks with external bulkheads, including one where the seam failed. His more successful projects become for sale on his website. He also provides guidance on how to build your own.

http://www.melevsreef.com/
http://www.melevsreef.com/product/coast-to-coast-overflow-box

 

[blackhailfire]

Sorry about the tank, right at a seam too. Good call on cutting it down. You will have some nice thick baffles

In general, I would not recommend putting a "QT" within the stand of your DT. Surprised that got past @Humblefish

Having said that, do not under estimate how much space you will need for other supplements, especially 2-part (or kalkwasser or other systems). This could easily take up the space of another ATO.

Reading through your thoughts on the overflow, I do not like the idea of cutting the back glass either. Drilling it is perfectly fine as stresses redistribute themselves nicely around circular holes. Check out the coast to coast overflows. If I were redoing a DIY tank, this is how I would go. Basically a low profile but very long weir sits at the top rear of your tank. You drill holes through the back glass and connect your plumbing it. You could secure an external glass box to receive the water and plumb from there, but the less error prone way is to connect plumbing directly to the bulkheads.

Checkout Melev's Reef on the web. He has a really nice website where he has detailed all of his DIY reefing projects over the years (at least a decade now). he has a few tanks with external bulkheads, including one where the seam failed. His more successful projects become for sale on his website. He also provides guidance on how to build your own.

http://www.melevsreef.com/
http://www.melevsreef.com/product/coast-to-coast-overflow-box

So regarding the quarantine tank inside of the main setup, I understand that the purpose is to observe, treat if needed, and attempt to limit the amount of unwanted issues such as "bad" hitchhikers or things like ich, velvet, ect. Space in the house is limited and I was considering this was a way to appease the overlord as well as have a place to quarantine new arrivals. Can you explain more on the pros and cons of both having this part of a setup inside the stand of the main display? I haven't yet done enough research on the other odds and ends such as reactors, and kalk dosing, gfo, ect.

Regarding the overflow, I was planning on using the bean animal method. I realized that halfway through the first on that having elbows fitted to the bulkheads would take up a good 3 to 3.5 inches inside the display. Hence the longer I make the overflow box the more space inside I loose. So I was considering options before I planned and fabricated it. I think as of now I'm going to just stick with the internal box to lessen chance of mishap.

As far as other planning, I have 2 of the older square style d120 165w black box lights. I'm fairly sure that while not the best they will work for a time. I'd like to go with two kessil a160we pendants, unless something else catches my eye later as a potiental upgrade.

I'm looking at a SCA-301 for the skimmer. Haven't seen many bad reviews on them.

Return pump is still undecided, should have approximately 5 foot of head loss, plus an elbow and maybe one or two 45s. I was shooting for somewhere between 5 to 9x turnover rate through the sump. The skimmer should process about 365 gallons per hour.

Tank flow, well, I'm also still undecided, I am shooting for two units, one near the floor under the overflow and one opposite near the top of the display for attempt for a circular ish flow pattern and to attempt to funnel debris into the overflow.

Rock and sand, still not set on where to purchase from, I have been considering Tampa Bay saltwater's package even with the mix of undesirable hitchhikers. Or perhaps a smaller "package" deal and dry rock to make up the remainder.

Water supply, well, I have a well, it's not the best for an rodi unit from what I've read. On that note we have been considering finding a new house one with perhaps city water. Which reminds me I need to get the well water tested for well, everything. I had considered both purchasing rodi water from a local pet shop or going with distilled in the interim.

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[Humblefish]

So regarding the quarantine tank inside of the main setup, I understand that the purpose is to observe, treat if needed, and attempt to limit the amount of unwanted issues such as "bad" hitchhikers or things like ich, velvet, ect. Space in the house is limited and I was considering this was a way to appease the overlord as well as have a place to quarantine new arrivals. Can you explain more on the pros and cons of both having this part of a setup inside the stand of the main display? I haven't yet done enough research on the other odds and ends such as reactors, and kalk dosing, gfo, ect.

You'd have to plumb a UV into your return line to eliminate parasite free swimmers (and other nasties) from reaching the DT above. (I'm not 100% sure if this QT will be a separate system entirely or part of/next to the sump somehow, since that's what typically goes under a tank.)

Either way, aerosol transmission could still be a factor: https://lareefclub.com/community/threads/aerosol-transmission.40223/

IME; anytime you keep a QT in close proximity to your DT nothing but bad things happen.

 

[blackhailfire]

You'd have to plumb a UV into your return line to eliminate parasite free swimmers (and other nasties) from reaching the DT above. (I'm not 100% sure if this QT will be a separate system entirely or part of/next to the sump somehow, since that's what typically goes under a tank.)

Either way, aerosol transmission could still be a factor: https://lareefclub.com/community/threads/aerosol-transmission.40223/

IME; anytime you keep a QT in close proximity to your DT nothing but bad things happen.

Ah. That makes more sense. And I had planned on keeping it a separate system from the main. I had planned to slap a small hob filter on the sump to seed the media, then a second on the QT tank and tossing the seeded media into the second filter, then tossing the media after each QT period. That way there wouldn't be any cross contamination of nasties or meds. I hadn't considered the aerosol factor. I could probably appease her by pulling it out only when needed I suppose.

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[blackhailfire]

So regarding the overflow box design, I can't seem to find black 1 inch pvc elbows in anything other than slip to slip. Has anyone ever considered using a pvc cutter to shorten the bulkhead attaching side of an elbow? To clarify I'm talking about the connection of an elbow to a small length of pvc glued into a bulkhead on the inside of a weir. I don't see a reason not to because as far as I know anything inside the weir other than the bulkhead fitting itself doesn't need to be watertight. Most of the threads I've seen on plumbing DONT want you to glue the elbows in place so you can remove them if necessary.

I had an extra white elbow to test, as I'd rather not cut the black ones I had to order online.

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[clsanchez77]

So regarding the overflow box design, I can't seem to find black 1 inch pvc elbows in anything other than slip to slip. Has anyone ever considered using a pvc cutter to shorten the bulkhead attaching side of an elbow? To clarify I'm talking about the connection of an elbow to a small length of pvc glued into a bulkhead on the inside of a weir. I don't see a reason not to because as far as I know anything inside the weir other than the bulkhead fitting itself doesn't need to be watertight. Most of the threads I've seen on plumbing DONT want you to glue the elbows in place so you can remove them if necessary.

I had an extra white elbow to test, as I'd rather not cut the black ones I had to order online.

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Generally, you do not want to glue your fittings to the bulkhead...but I do it all the time In 20 years of reefing, I have never need to take my plumbing apart to service it. If I'm breaking a tank down for a reset, upgrade or whatever, the cost of cutting and replacing a few fittings is nominal. If you are on the drain side of the bulkhead, I do not see any issues with what you are doing. If you are on the return side, then I would not recommend this as you are reducing the contact surface area for the PVC cement to form the bond.

 

[clsanchez77]

...and btw, I just setup an expirement where I will attempt to remove a piece of cemented PVC pipe from a glued fitting. Bond may not be a permanent as we all once believed.

 

[blackhailfire]

Generally, you do not want to glue your fittings to the bulkhead...but I do it all the time In 20 years of reefing, I have never need to take my plumbing apart to service it. If I'm breaking a tank down for a reset, upgrade or whatever, the cost of cutting and replacing a few fittings is nominal. If you are on the drain side of the bulkhead, I do not see any issues with what you are doing. If you are on the return side, then I would not recommend this as you are reducing the contact surface area for the PVC cement to form the bond.

Thats what I fogured, I just wanted to run it by people who have been dealing with it longer than I have. Given the size of the tank, I'd rather maximize whatever useable space I can for water volume or swim space. I didn't want to end up with an overflow taking up more room that I had to to function well. I get that it's only saving maybe a quarter inch, but a quarter inch over 30 inches length is....well, napkin math, but still volume.

I was planning to glue anything external to the tank body and either slip or thread anything internal, with the judicious use of unions.

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[clsanchez77]

Thats what I fogured, I just wanted to run it by people who have been dealing with it longer than I have. Given the size of the tank, I'd rather maximize whatever useable space I can for water volume or swim space. I didn't want to end up with an overflow taking up more room that I had to to function well. I get that it's only saving maybe a quarter inch, but a quarter inch over 30 inches length is....well, napkin math, but still volume.

I was planning to glue anything external to the tank body and either slip or thread anything internal, with the judicious use of unions.

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Sounds good. Perhaps, instead of using elbows, use Tee's and on the top put on a threaded adapter and threaded cap. This will provide you access since your fittings will be glued. But still I wonder how many people actually go through the trouble to drain a tank, break down and move it off the wall to clean a length of PVC that can be cut and replace for about $20 and a little elbow grease.

How many drain bulkheads will you have and what is your target flow rate?

 

[blackhailfire]

Sounds good. Perhaps, instead of using elbows, use Tee's and on the top put on a threaded adapter and threaded cap. This will provide you access since your fittings will be glued. But still I wonder how many people actually go through the trouble to drain a tank, break down and move it off the wall to clean a length of PVC that can be cut and replace for about $20 and a little elbow grease.

How many drain bulkheads will you have and what is your target flow rate?

On the outside I had planned on using t's. I'm looking at three 1 inch bulkheads for the drains and 1 3/4 inch for the return. Maybe another 1 inch. I was going to Target about 5 to 6 hundred gph through the sump. Head pressure is about a 4 foot vertical plus a 90 on the return. If I remember right each 90 is considered 1 extra foot of head pressure. So 5 ish total.

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[clsanchez77]

On the outside I had planned on using t's. I'm looking at three 1 inch bulkheads for the drains and 1 3/4 inch for the return. Maybe another 1 inch. I was going to Target about 5 to 6 hundred gph through the sump. Head pressure is about a 4 foot vertical plus a 90 on the return. If I remember right each 90 is considered 1 extra foot of head pressure. So 5 ish total.

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Seems reasonable to me. The 1 ft per fitting is overkill and depends on the pipe velocity but good enough for most tanks. I would consider at least two returns. This way if one clogs, the flow pattern redistributes and does not put back pressure on the pump.

For 550 gph through a 3/4" pipe, you are looking at 0.45-ft per elbow. If you go with dual 3/4" returns, you are looking at 0.11-ft per elbow

3 returns would be great. BRS sells a low profile stainer that can slip into the bulkheads, which will keep any stray snails or jumpers out of the return. Its nice though that if one clogs you still have two.

 

[blackhailfire]

So, I'm looking for advice or someone who is halfway decent with SketchUp (apparently I'm not) to help me out on a sump design and baffle heights. Being as the sump is planned to be with the width side to the length side of the display, I've come to the conclusion that I should attempt to place both the drain and return on the same side of the sump and have the refugium on one side of it. Sorta like this.

I'm looking at the skimmer intake section roughly being 11 inches long by 6 inches wide, the return chamber to be roughly 8 inches long by 5 inches wide. The extra three inches on the return side taken up by a bubble trap (under over under or over under over?) And a refugium roughly 12 inches by the width of the tank. If anyone has a few minutes to maybe drawn up some baffle dimensions I would be grateful.

I've also considered teeing off the return to feed the fuge directly and trying to work with half or just under half to fit the skimmer intakes and return pump.

It's a standard aqueon 20 gallon high, 24.25 long by 12.5 wide by 16.75 high. I'm undecided on the skimmer still, return pump I'm looking at either the jebao dcq 900-2600, or the sicce syncra pro 800 model.

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[clsanchez77]

What is your skimmer? You may be too small in that compartment. Typical setup is straight through, not around the bend. Not that this does not work, but I have three concerns.

First is the skimmer section too small, resulting in you undersizing your skimmer.

Second is short circuiting in the refugium, where water will go straight from the intake baffle to the discharge baffle, with little turbulence in the middle and full stagnant in the corners.

Third and final is the under/over baffles may cause more harm than good. The work best with the water flowrate through there is slow; this gives any bubbles a change to rise to the top and not get swepth through. Being that your target flowrate is 550 gph, and your flow width is only half the tank, you may not achieve the target goal. Keep in mind, the two sources of bubbles in the drain discharge and skimmer discharge. Being that you have a regium between the discharge area and the baffles, the refugium will do a good job eliminating most of the baffles. I think you only need the one under weir, not the following over/under series.

When designing a sump, its a good idea to look for the one you like best and would buy yourself if it did not cost a fortune, and model yours after that one, plus any mods you want to make. What you are attempting looks like the cube sumps with a refugium. Albeit, these are a little wider than what you are working with. Here is one worth looking at it; the skimmer section is 9"x 11.6"
http://www.triggersys.com/ts/emerald20c/

 

[blackhailfire]

After further review, I'm thinking I set it up "normally" and step up a pump size (preferably with a controller) to compensate for the extra piping run and head loss.

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[blackhailfire]

Got the back glass painted and got it drilled. Waiting for the glass shop to call me back. Apparently the glass was more expensive than I thought. I have some left over from the chipped tank I had but the place I went said it's 10 bucks a cut, or use their glass at 8 bucks a square foot and the cuts are free. Was about 60 bucks for the sump baffles and a smoked glass overflow.

Decided to go with a dual return instead of a single.

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[BluewaterLa]

With your sump design I would recommend going simple with the baffles.
Trying to pack too much into a smaller sump will make things tight for space, complicate water flow or restrict it and may not hold enough water in certain sections that is needed like for your return section as the pump may not get enough water.

With baffles for bubble trapping and such, Space these out more than you think or plan as when you stack them in tight you are creating spaces that can not be cleaned to good or easily and it will soon become apparent to you once it gets dirty or build up you want gone.

 

[blackhailfire]

I'm going to. I ditched the complicated design in favor of a simpler one.

Something similar to this with a few chamber size modifications. Larger return area. Large skimmer area smaller refugium area. I haven't decided if I want to stick the return centered and plumb the refugium to the return to feed it or leave it in the center. Thoughts?

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[blackhailfire]

Also I picked up a return pump today. Hopefully I got a decent one. Everything I've read said that they improve each generation.

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